I spent about three weeks posting to the Complementarian Christian Coalition forum before I was banned from participation. I joined the forum with the idea that I would agree with the group on basic Christian doctrine, but would differ somewhat regarding the issue of gender roles. In fair play to the people on that forum, it is their group for the purpose of discussing their particular viewpoint. However, I stated outright when joining that I tend toward the egalitarian side of the debate, and they let me on.
Within a week, it became obvious that they consider even moderate egalitarians to be raving feminists, heretics and, in the case of one lady, communist sympathizers. Throughout the discussion, there were various comments about my ignorance and lack of theological knowledge. I was accused of twisting scripture, and twisting the statements of the forum members. I was told I was selfish and should take up pole dancing. Then someone said this to me:
“Indeed, to portray the values, virtues, and blessings of male headship and female submission to it as evils comes very close to what Jesus describedas the unpardonable sin: to credit to the devil what is, in fact, the work of the Holy Spirit. It is here where I warn you again that your soul is in peril of irrevocable damnation. For your own sake, back up and rethink things, if you are still able.”
I responded by telling him that Christ alone saves, and the work of salvation is not dependent on a belief in female submission or male headship. He reiterated: “I merely affirmed that male headship is part of salvation, the gospel, the works.” There were a number of attempts by others to explain his statements, and accuse me of intentionally misinterpreting what he meant by it. Pretty soon thereafter, my posting privileges were cut off. Several people continued to post comments to and about me after they knew I was unable to respond, which is really one of the shabbiest things people can do on any kind of forum.
Do I regret my experience on the CCC forum? No. It was instructive in the same sense that discovering termites have eaten the foundation of your home is instructive. I needed a hammer-to-the-frontal-lobe type of discussion to alert me to the reasons that the comp/egal debate is so bitter. However, please be warned that the CCC forum may (and probably will) chew you up and spit you out like a cheap toothpick if you disagree with their views.
Postmaster's Note: I observed this story as it unfolded--no, I'm not G R--and in my opinion, G R is being far more charitable about what happened than the CCC members deserve. That is one toxic community! (shudder) The head moderator there, who made the decision to "ban" G R, is Michael McMillan. He engages in and tolerates the outrageous sarcasm and denigration of people he has removed from the "community." And G R was not exaggerating about the woman who accuses egalitarians of being communists. She's done that in several venues that I've read. Most troubling about this story, besides what happend to G R personally, is that the "If you think patriarchy is evil, your soul is in peril" gent is a newly-minted Anglican priest in Waxahachie, Texas. His name is William Mouser and he's the brains behind some of the most restrictive and outrageously extrabiblical of the "gender role" publications and seminars being spread around out there. If too many so-called complementarians start believing what Scripture says about equality in Jesus Christ, he stands to lose money. Steer clear of this guy. He's very, very nasty to egalitarian Christians. Up to and including threatening lawsuits of one egalitarian forum's moderators because a couple of participants criticized him harshly for his untruthful statements about biblical equality in his upcoming book. I may create a separate story about that in the near future.
8/14/06 - What's shameful, "Cai," is the fact that online venues such as yours treat people as they do. Hence this blog. CCC disgraces Christianity all the time, and you appear to approve. If you don't want the stories told, don't contribute to the events they describe. You might try reining in your friends when they engage in the kind of shameful behavior for which CCC is unfortunately notorious.
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21 comments:
Those guys are in the twilight of Patriarchy. They are the hard core that's left after the rest of society has come up to speed in the twenty first century. They are on the losing side of hsitory and in a few short decades will be thoguht of as the defenders of the confederacy.
Hi Donna,
You said:"Hey, I'm banned from the Complementarian - Egalitarian - Dialogue."
I have never heard of this forum. Could you indulge my curiousity and tell me about it?
You said:"Who are you, GR?"
I'm a thirtysomething woman who is interested in finding out more about the gender debate, due to some controversy that has been occurring at my church.
My viewpoints tend to be egalitarian, however there are egalitarians who are much better versed in the issues than I am, so I am guarded about saying that I am expressing egalitarian views with accuracy.
I'm not affiliated with any organization besides my workplace, which is in the public sector. I read blogs and participate in a few open forums on the Internet, and that is the extent to which I am involved in the gender debate.
You said:"You did not get kicked off, you got put on "read only."
No argument there.
You said:"I am an anti-Communist"
Me too. Communism was the most lethal system of government in the 20th century, killing some 100 million people. So, I'm with you on that one...and I'm sure I stated as much on the CCC forum.
You said: "Hey, I felt a bit bad for GR, but she kind of got into trouble when she called patriarchy "evil."
I'm going to check on this one. I almost never use the word "evil" in debates. It tends to be unneccessarily incendiary and I use it very conservatively.
But it is possible you are right and I used it in an uninhibited moment of posting. I can certainly try to give you a definitive answer.
Thanks
Repeating part of previous comment:
Blog owner's note:
Donna, I apologize for being more sarcastic than I should have been in that in-post comment in which I never mentioned your name. Please note that G. R. did not name you, either.
- - -
Now, given that you've chosen to revel publicly in my unfortunate turn of phrase, which I removed before you ever commented and for which I've already sincerely apologized, Donna, I'll take it you don't intend to accept my apology. It also appears you have no intention of removing any of the many hurtful things you've said about others at CCC and on other blogs. So be it. If I'm wrong on either count, feel free to let me know. Until then, I'll consider your visit here a drive-by blog attack.
Fool me once, shame on me. For both our sakes, you won't get a twice here.
Hi Donna,
I used the word "evil" a total of three times in my postings to the CCC forum.
In the first case, I used "evil" to refer to communism.
In the second case, I used "evil" to refer to the practice of selling women in exchange for labor.
Here is the third instance:
"When power is combined with a sense of entitlement, the result will nearly always be evil. This is because human beings are sinful, and, given unchecked reign, they will generally use power for their own sinful desires."
I commented that both radical feminism and patriarchy are concerned with power, and unchecked power is undesireable in any government.
To explain:
I believe that the idea of human government itself is necessary, because even the worst form of government is better than lawlessness and anarchy.
Governing systems are needed due to the fallen nature of humanity. They are a consequence of the fall. I do not believe that humanity needed government before the fall.
I held this opinion long before I even heard of the current gender debate. I consider it to be an overarching principal by which to understand human government, of which patriarchy is only one example.
Additionally, I believe that human systems of government (monarchy, democracy, patriarchy, oligarchy, tribal structures) are all prone to the problems that result from fallen people being given power.
I don't believe these things to antagonize complementarians. I believe them because I feel they are true and can be supported by examples in scripture.
Thanks
Donna,
I'm familiar with the comp-egal list. It is my impression that you left the list on your own steam, not that you were banned. I can find out if you like.
OK, I checked. It seems that Donna did leave on her own steam, but that she was banned from returning due to the false statements that she was making about one of the moderators. BTW Donna, it seems you are still spreading around those false statements where ever you like. I'm privy to the story, so I'm capable of verifying it. Thankfully, the moderator here saw fit to remove those comments.
However, this is a complaint forum. Why don't you lodge your complaint. I'd love to read your version of the incident.
This is the last response I will make to you, Donna, so long as you continue to attempt to post comments that do not follow the guidelines.
You're welcome to play your little guessing game and make more wrong guesses, but you will not be playing it here. If you think you deserve a "badge," then follow the posted procedures if you have a truthful story you want posted.
For the record, nearly all the comments I removed had the reference you found so offensive in them. Yes, including yours. You made a reasonable objection, so I removed all instances of the reference. The others I rejected or removed did not follow the posted comment guidelines for various reasons.
It's no secret what you say elsewhere about this blog and others you get comments rejected on. I suggest you reconsider frequenting sites for which you have so much expressed contempt and for which your comments do not conform to the posted guidelines.
>>I was accused of twisting scripture, and twisting the statements of the forum members. I was told I was selfish and should take up pole dancing.<<
GR,
This is insane!! LOL Someone told you to take up "pole dancing"??? Yes, it seems that a certain member or two of the CCC list likes to remember past discussions (Oprah had a show on pole dancing and it was about women who took lessons in order to help them feel better about their own sexuality) and kind of "glop" them altogether and unload their slurs on anyone who would disagree with them. It is a bad thing for a woman to feel sexy in her own bedroom. It isn't patriarchal? A man or two was fine with the pole dancing but the main woman on the list found it to be "lewd".
Everything in the world boils down to patriarchy because that is the lens they see things through.
Now, just as I knew it would happen, they are complaining (more like the men are whining) that Andrea Yates got off because she is a woman and that if it were a man, he wouldn't have gotten off. When they write their posts they write from their "sour grapes" attitude. Christianity IS patriarchy according to them.
I saw how Bill tried to wriggle out of telling you that he said you committed the unpardonable sin. However, all anyone had to do is go back and read what he said and he can't slip out of that one. It is dishonest of him to assert that he didn't intimate that to you in his post. It certainly was strongly implied.
That forum is filled with people who truly need to discover what the gospel is really about. The gospel isn't about Patriarchy. Jesus didn't come to preach the good news of "Patriarchy". The disciples didn't go about spreading "patriarchy". Too bad they are missing the blessing of reading the scriptures without a skewed lens.
I have actually come to feel sorry for this group. Nothing they say or do surprises me anymore. They are self-deceived about how they treat other people and about how people treat them.
GR, I used to be on the CCC list. :-) I check in once in a while if I find myself in a masochistic mood. I am never sorry that I did for I find no short supply of posts that cause me pain. I just read about this blog this very day in a post on CCC. I then googled this blog and here I am. I kind of thought that I was one of the people left unnamed in a post, today, on the CCC list. I was right. For the record: I am NOT Badge of Honor. I only found out about this blog today on the CCC list. But it is fun for me to see so many posts referring to myself on the CCC list. Even after so many months of being gone, I am still being talked about! I am glad to see that I left a mark. :-)
GR, just so you know, I am a complementarian. I agree with the statement by CBMW that we are equal in essence. I found it just as frustrating on the CCC list when I would be drug through the wringer because I would quote something from CBMW and then be accused of spreading egalitarian teachings on the list! LOL I would conveniently leave off the author of the quote until AFTER I was accused of being an egal. Then I would tell the list that I lifted the quote from the CBMW website. I found it quite confusing that I was so hated on that list. It was even said to me that CBMW was feminized and egalitarian in many ways!!! LOL
You all can go back and read my posts and you will see I was NEVER nasty and I stuck to the issues. You will also see that my words were almost always taken out of context. Just like they did to you GR. I could see the points you were making but you need to know, that on that list, they do not want to be bothered by the facts. You have a great sense of humor that came through in your posts. Thank you for the laughs! I love irony. You made a lot of great points and it really is too bad that you couldn't get a decent, honest answer from anyone.
I have been deeply hurt by one main poster on that list. It is very painful for me to talk about even though the original assault took place over 2 years ago. The abuse is still going on. And it takes place right there in the open in the posts on CCC. I am referred to as "friend" and the references to women blaming their abortions on men are concerning me, too. Also, I need to apologize to you since I am the reason that "pole dancing" was thrown out at you. All of the accusations are false but it doesn't matter. I may get around to telling my own story of this ongoing abuse. There was also veiled threats made to me that the moderator/owner wanted to know where I went to church so he could contact my elders about me.
There are many egals AND comps who have been banned and thrown off of that list. You would be very surprised. If you don't agree with their particular misinterpretation of the Bible, you are anathema. It seems that they are untouchable and above their own rules. They have a "do as I say, not as I do" approach.
This is getting long and my new little babe needs to nurse.
I may disagree with many things that egals believe but we are both casualties of this same group. And I believe that this is not an issue I will use as a litmus test of Christianity.
You will know they are Christians by their LOVE....not by their patriarchy or headship.
hey Corrie, I enjoyed reading your comment. I also agree with CBMW that women and men are equal in essence. And that men and women are different and even do many things differently. Guess that could make me complementarian. :) but I don't believe in their "roles" concepts.
Take care of that baby. Glad to "see" you doing so well.
Hi Corrie,
I just went through some of the posts that were exchanged while you were on that list. What can I say? I think you should really consider posting your story on the Badge of Honor front page.
When people on the CCC forum first started making comments about pole dancing, obsessing about my views on abortion and asking what I thought of Oprah, I figured they might be a bit...well, unhinged.
It took me quite a while to even understand the "pole dancing" comment.
After all, it could have been another sneaky accusation that I was a communist, since communists celebrate May Day, and presumably dance around the May pole.
I actually felt sort of sorry for them. I imagined that they were like people who had been sealed into a bomb shelter together for too long, and now they had a hard time making sense to outsiders.
Now it appears that many of the things they said were just jabs at you and others who had been kicked off before me.
I see a certain pattern to all of this that involves CCC taking on new people, sparring with them for a time, becoming increasingly more abusive and finally, with considerable relish, silencing them. There is almost a nervous excitement on the part of one individual as this climax draws near and he gives a few warnings of what is to come.
The feeling of victory is compounded by developing inside references and jokes about that individual that can be brought up later as reminders of how the group prevailed over and silenced an opponent.
This must be very satisfying to a group that seems to feel marginalized and isolated in their opinions. I think that, as a group, they have a lot more ability to control the escalation than I initially had thought.
They accept new members because they need "enemies" to fight in order to maintain some unity as a group.
Otherwise, people like the guy who believes that it's fine for a husband to force his wife into submission by making her "uncomfortable" enough, would eventually alienate some of the more rational members.
They get new members by falsely advertising themselves as a group that conforms to the Danvers statement, when, as you pointed out, many of them really do not.
I went in as a bit of a scrapper, and knew that I held an opposing viewpoint on a number of issues.
I'm sure that it is very hurtful to people such as yourself who join expecting to agree with people there, only to be treated outrageously. Based on what I read, you were treated in a considerably worse way than I was.
Thanks. I really appreciated learning more from you.
GR, yes, unfortunately I gave them much fodder for their cannons. I am glad all those cryptic and odd references now make sense to you! LOL
It is funny, though. There is a person on that list who keeps on asserting that I am following them around and I won't leave them alone when, in fact, it is the other way around! You will not see me following anyone around. I own a woman's list and I am part owner of the comp-egal list and this person tried to rejoin on both of them. I am content to leave well enough alone.
I am actually living what the people on that list only talk about. I am busy raising my children and taking care of my home and my family. I am busy and active in my church and community and neighborhood. I am a sahm. I don't have time to be lying in wait for my next victim. The Bible says that those who do such things will only fall into their own traps. I believe that to be true.
I have been pretty much missing in action this past year due to a pregnancy (I just gave birth to my son at the end of April). Anyone who knows me can attest to that fact. I have been harangued (in a good way) at my blog for not posting. I have not been posting or reading on my list or on the lists I am on. I pop my head in once in a while for a quick comment.
My main focus is not complementarianism. I think when we make something like this our main focus, we become myopic and eventually our doctrine becomes very "off".
Thanks for your comments!
Sorry to have had to reject a recent comment. Unfortunately, while it addressed one of the commenters, its only other connection to GR's story was in reporting a similar experience at the site under discussion. I'd be glad to consider posting the story itself if the commenter will send it by separate e-mail. As per the posted guidelines, stories posted in another comment's stories won't be approved. Thanks for reading here at "Badge of Honor."
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